Hello there, welcome to Feuerroter Pfeil und Bogen (Opening)'s talk page! Whilst you are here, we would like you to take a quick look at some rules, failure to follow these rules may result in a block, you have been warned.
Sign your comments with ~~~~
Profanity should be kept to a minimum
Make it clear and readable
Put it under a new heading for a new topic (e.g. "Titan shifting.")
A bit of clarification! The Jiyuu e no Shingeki lyrics booklet says that the first line is actually "Seid ihr das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger!" (which translates to "Are you the food? No, we are the hunter!") Technically, 'wir sind *der* Jäger' is grammatically incorrect, but I assume it was chosen to emphasize the groups strong sense of unity.
The text on the scan is stylized and smudged, but I believe you can still read the lines.
Funimations "Sind Sie das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger!" ("Are you the food? No, we are the hunter!") is therefore wrong. (note that "Sie" with a capital S is the formal way to say 'you')
"Sie sind das Essen und wir sind die Jäger!" is grammatically correct (and honestly, as a native speaker, that's what I heard when I first listened to the song too), but apparently it's not what's being said in the opening.
(I'm new to the wiki, so I'm very sorry if I made any mistakes! Thank you for reading)
Minyaa, would you please tell me what makes you so confident that your "ah ah ah ah ah wir sind Jäger" is more right than my "Armut, Armut, Armut nur! Armut doch wir sind Jäger! Panik, Panik, Panik nur! Panik doch wir sind Jäger!"? I'd like to discuss that instead of it becoming an edit war...
Hey! I'm sorry, I should've asked you about your edit before undoing it. Thanks for asking to discuss this properly! The lyrics booklet doesn't say anything about this part, as far as I can see. I googled but couldn't find any other trustworthy sources- the one forumpost I could find your version on was fanmade, though. I relistened to the intro, but I couldn't make out anything you added. The sounds seem too short to be "Panik" and "Armut". The grammar is poor as well: I believe you'd usually say "Nur Panik, doch wir sind Jäger"/ "Nur Armut, doch wir sind Jäger!", but even that looks off. I found it strange that the rest of the official german lyrics would keep a correct sentence structure except for that bit. That being said, the version I changed this back to wasn't my addition. It made sense to me, so I stuck with it (even if I can hear "Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, Attack on Titan.." as well- but that doesn't fit the end of the song). If you do have any official sources on this, I'd be very grateful if you shared them!
Minyaa (talk) 02:27, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
There are no official sources for that and that forum post you quoted was actually me as well. But the "ha ha ha ha" didn't have any official source and was left there, as well. And if you really only wanted strictly official lyrics, then you would have to remove the "Angriff auf die Titanen, der Junge von einst..." part as well, because that is not listed in any official lyrics, as far as I know. Also regarding consistentency of grammar, I have to disagree. Have you seen the lyrics of Jiyuu no Tsubasa? "Mensch, Sie welche sind" doesn't sound too correct either. And I can hear "Armut" and "Panik" very clearly (also while the German native singer sings "Feuerroter Pfeil und Bogen", you should at least hear that before the two "wir sind Jäger" there are two different things spelled), but that is not a matter that can be decided objectively I guess. So, to say the truth, I don't know what to do now. To say the least the part we are discussing is nothing more than a background choir, so in case of doubt, it can always be removed completely. The only thing I will not accept, is that some anon user simply puts in "ah ah ah ah ah" there and copy pastes it to the other places, while ignoring that you can clearly hear "Jäger" 4 times in the last part, but he simply wrote it as if it was just 2 times. So I at least would like to never see that "ah ah ah" part again. Also I feel like there should be more people involved into this discussion to resolve it.
Good to know that it was you. I was referring to Guren no Yumiya only, not Jiyuu no Tsubasa, since that's not the topic of our discussion. There definitely is messy german in the latter, but the first one seems fine to me for the most part. It's correct that the german narration is not in the official lyrics booklet, but the words are definitely clear enough. I don't see any reason to remove them. I know that the other anon's version didn't have any official sources either; I said so myself. The only difference between the parts before the two "wir sind Jäger" I can hear is a change in pitch; I'm also still of the opinion that the sounds are too short and smooth to contain two syllables each. The pronounciation is simply not clear enough to confirm either version, so I can agree to disagree. I believe it'd be best to remove the choir's lines entirely for now. I have no control over what any other anons decide to do; it unfortunately seems as though people don't check the talk pages too often. I'm afraid it'll be difficult to get more people to discuss this, especially ones who speak German well enough.
I have only skimmed through your messages so all I'm going to say now is that you shouldn't count on correct grammar also being correct lyrics. Their knowledge of German aside, they may have altered the words and/or structures to make the lyrics sound better. So, is there any way to figure out which lyrics are the correct one? Like, have they provided them with the soundtrack release, perhaps? Frankly said, it's tiresome seeing the lyrics being edited back and forth every day :x Miskos3Talk 18:02, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
Hello! I have scans of the official booklet, but the choir's lines weren't added to the rest of the lyrics. As far as I can see, there are no other official sources that confirm either interpretation for now. I've removed the problematic lines from the wikia, I hope that's okay! I didn't see your response before finishing. --Minyaa (talk) 18:32, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
I agree that that is probably the best solution for now. I doubt we will get anything new regarding the lyrics and I am still convinced of my own interpretation, but I guess it is better to keep it to myself for now and ask others about their opinion first. I still notice a little inconsistency though. Sometimes it is "wir sind die Jäger" (we are the hunters) and sometimes it is "wir sind der Jäger" (we are the hunter). The former is a little more grammatically correct, as it is the plural form (which fits with "wir" which means "we"). The latter seems less correct because it doensn't sound like "der" at all when listening to it and it also shifts the meaning into a more metaphorical one. In order to be viable, the singular form needs an explanation like, for example, the people ("we") are a collective/a group. With that it becomes viable, even though less credible. On the other hand the version that is seen in the booklet is clearly "Wir sind der Jäger". [I guess "it is grammatically consistent" does not apply to this after all]
Whatever we chose at the end, it should at least be consistent. So we either take "die Jäger" or "der Jäger" from beginning to end. NeoSuperior (talk) 21:24, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
Ah, I hadn't noticed that those parts still say "die". In my opinion it'd be best to go with "Wir sind der Jäger" to stick with the official lyrics all the way through. Minyaa (talk) 21:53, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, but I have to restart the discussion. I am not so sure if we can use the booklet as a valid source anymore. The reason however is on the right side of the booklet, the Jiyuu no Tsubasa part. So to continue that discussion I would be glad if you could go to the Jiyuu no Tsubasa talk page, thank you!
NeoSuperior (talk) 00:03, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
The way that it is now, I think, may be conceptually faulty. Why is it referring to "you" in the question but then it refers to the collective group (we) in the contradiction? It doesn't make much sense to me, not to mention that even if we assume grammatical incorrectness, the Japanese still have a sense of intonation-- that line as it is in the song sounds like one sentence. No matter how much I replay it, the place where the "nein" is supposed to be sounds like an "und", and the two words are pretty distinct in sounding. Then again, this is coming from someone with ears untrained in German, and in the song, they pronounce "sie" like "say" when it's supposed to be prounced like "see". Seg162 (talk) 16:56, August 13, 2013 (UTC)
The anonymus who put the "Ah ah ah" part in the lyrics was me, an native german speaker.
There is nothing with "Armut" or "Panik" in the song.
I listen to the song more and more times, friends of me too, and all of them, was the same opinion like me.
And "die Jäger" is right, because "wir sind Jäger" is "we are hunter" and "die" means she and in plural, it's for more persons.
Sry for my bad english, it isn't really good, but I hope you understand what I mean.KiaraKitsune (talk) 10:00, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
I'm a native german speaker as well and I absolutely agree with you! But as we've already established above, it's best to remove it since we can't guarantee that "Ah ah ah" is what's being sung. It's also true that "die Jäger" would be correct, but the official lyrics say "der Jäger". Right now, our best source is the booklet, but if new trustworthy info pops up, we can still edit the article. Minyaa (talk) 14:46, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
Remember that the band is Japanese, therefore it doesn't mean that the German parts are supposed to be grammatically correct. Miskos3Talk 15:07, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
I hear "Nein" nowhere in that part. I do, however, hear exactly what the original post said--"Sie sind das Essen und wir sind die Jager". TheSwedishElf (talk) 05:22, August 15, 2013 (UTC)
I can confirm (as a native german) that I hear the same "Sie sind das Essen und wir sind die Jäger". I also understand that it can be very difficult to hear, for untrained ears. AixonXIV (talk) 12:45, October 30, 2013 (UTC)
I noticed that the english versions are still only the tv-size version. Did anyone find a translation that can be used for the complete version, yet? NeoSuperior (talk) 21:24, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
marchen-v-friedhof did a complete translation, but I'm hesitant to edit the versions that already exist. I'd suggest adding a new section? I can't tell how accurate the Japanese -> English parts are, but a few words of the German -> English translation could be changed to stay closer to the original lyrics. Minyaa (talk) 22:22, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
In retrospect, I really should've asked to be given the green light beforehand, I'm sorry. orz I added the English translation I linked above (I only adjusted the german parts a tiny bit) and fixed a few incorrect edits from before. Minyaa (talk) 15:46, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
The official name of this song (as titled by REVO) is "Feuerroter Pfeil und Bogen", therefore the article should be moved to that name (while keeping the redirect page). hfc2X 06:00, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
I know, but that's why the redirect should be kept. The official name of the song is Feuerroter Pfeil und Bogen, not Guren no Yumiya. That's the title the author himself gave it, even though we may not like it. hfc2X 19:58, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
Confirmed: The anime opening credits clearly state the song's name: "Feuerroter Pfeil und Bogen". The only reason not to change the name would be due to possible confusion that could arise, but with a redirect that would not be a problem. NeoSuperior (talk) 23:08, September 5, 2013 (UTC)